Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Gaza Nothing but a Turkey Shoot

Some op-ed pieces are worth reprinting. This one from today's Star would be one of them.

Personally, I'd say it's more like shooting fish in a barrel. If civilians are not allowed to leave their country to flee war, can't get food, can't get water, can't get fuel and have to dig tunnels to scavenge medical supplies from Egypt, at what point does a seizure or an incursion start to become a genocide? Just asking.

28 comments:

LeDaro said...

Good question. It is totally horrible. Where would it all end? Very dangerous and explosive situation.

Jason Cherniak said...

300 people killed in targetted military strikes and you are talking "genocide". I recommend very strongly that you reconsider your verbage and withdraw it.

Also, please note that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Why is only Israel responsible? Allow me to suggest that the "facts" on which you rely are highly suspect.

James Curran said...

I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth Jason. I did NOT state that there was a genocide happening, but rather asked at what point it becomes one.

Egypt negotiated a ceasefire Jason. Remind me who broke that ceasefire Jason. "facts" are important. The world is watching the "facts" about this confrontation.

When little children (5 daughters in one family) start to die because they live beside a so-called "targeted" mosque I tend to not be happy Jason.

I seem to remeber you not being overly happy with comments on "war crimes" back in 2006. Yet somehow you're quite happy with the Liberal leader right now.

Let me refresh you memory:

http://jasoncherniak.blogspot.com/search?q=ignatieff+war+crimes

Now, if you want to condemn me for something I DIDN'T say, go right ahead.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Wow Jason, the mentalist midget makes a comment and surprise, surprise apologizes for the actions of Israel...

If anyone needed a two-by-clue it would be you - Israel "right or wrong" is always right by you...

The op ed notes quite rightly that:
Israel's siege of Gaza was allowing "only barely enough food and fuel to enter to stave off mass famine and disease." He described Israel's action as "collective punishment."
The key words being "collective punishment"...
Israel has done all possible to blockade and control aid to Gaza you little turd...

How's this for an analogy - you have overcrowding in a ghetto and food and aid is being controlled by Israel...


Yes Egypt does share a border and you are asking a foreign country to be responsible for a problem that is not hers... Maybe Egypt support a two-state solution...

The problem in Gaza is caused by Israel -

I find it amazing in this day and age that some let religion be their overwhelming guide as to what is right and wrong...

Jason Cherniak said...

Give me a break. Even suggesting that this might be genocide - about the worst thing anybody could possibly do - is going far too far. Don't try to get out on some technicality that you only asked a question.

Also, I suggest you ask yourself why a Mosque is right beside a Hamas military installation. Under the Geneva convention (and any sensible moral code), it is Hamas that is responsible.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Under the Geneva convention (and any sensible moral code), it is Hamas that is responsible.
Are you sure that you are a lawyer?

So are you a fan of collective punishment?

Jason Cherniak said...

Gaza elected Hamas as a government. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not recognize Israel's right to exist. And you suggest that Israel has a responsibility to trade with Gaza? I've heard of turning the other cheek, but that is ridiculous.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Wow Jason, youa re a bigger twit than I imagined...

Hamas was elected and the result of the vote duly ignored by Israel, the US and Canada...

Trade? What the fuck are you talking about? UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) can't even get the basics in...

So shall we talk about kill ratios now, does that give you a stiffy?

I noticed that you ignored all direct questions...

Since you seem to like the illusion of law - why don't you ever protest against the Israeli illegal settlements?
Israel has second class citizens, so are you a fan of apartheid?

Like all conflicts, this will end and will only have fuelled hate.

Jason Cherniak said...

I'm amazed that you still haven't learned how to argue like an adult. Explain to me why UNRWA can't go through Egypt. Are they purposely trying to go through Israel just to make a point?

James Curran said...

Explain to me why UNRWA can't go through Israel Jason. Are they also a threat to Israel?

Explain to me how the UN is WRONG to ask for an immediate ceasefire? Is the UN also anti-Israel now?

Talk about not arguing like an adult.

ottlib said...

Wow, the invocation of the idea of genocide and ghettos in a post about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Both being directed at Israel, many of whose citizens still have very painful memories of both.

Talk about being provocative and talk about irony.

Jason, neither the Israeli government nor Hamas are right in this situation. Both are pursuing strategies that have proven, beyond all doubt, to be colossal failures in achieving even their short term objectives.

For either side or their supporters to expect a different result this time is insanity.

Jason Cherniak said...

Since that comment, I've read in a few places that Israel is allowing UNRWA through. Apparently dozens of trucks went through Friday and 100 are expected Tuesday. As I suggested initially, facts matter.

James Curran said...

Even Jews aren't happy about the Gaza situation Jason. But maybe these Jews are rogue Jews that shouldn't even be called Jews.

http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/gaza/

James Curran said...

Even the White House ain't too impressed Jason.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/FR/37621.htm

Cherniak_WTF said...

Jason, I've already answered why Egypt is not more open. You are quite thick...

It's amazing that you state that Hamas has military installations. Are you saying that Gaza has a military?
Why is Israel targeting police stations, universities and other targets. That would be a clear violation of the Geneva conventions. I don't expect the IDF to ever face a court of law....

I see you have your pro-Israel talking points handy...
To which country do the citizens of Gaza belong to?
Is Israel continuing to grab land illegally?

Cherniak_WTF said...

But maybe these Jews are rogue Jews that shouldn't even be called Jews.
There is a special ad hominem for them - they are called self-loathing Jews....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

Warren K said...

Jim, the suggestion that "genocide" is taking place here is appalling. I know you would never adopt the lexicon of Iran, anti-Semites, and their ilk. If that is indeed what you are saying, I would ask that you reconsider.

Jason Cherniak said...

Jim, Jews are allowed to disagree like anybody else. That still doesn't explain your "Genocide" possibility, though.

James Curran said...

Warren, with all due respect, your inference that I would align myself with anti-semites is beyond the pale.

I've supported the state of Israel my entire adult life.
I've been on the walk for Israel.
I was a member of Liberals4Israel.

I've put up my own money to take out statements in support of Israel in the Globe and Mail when a certain leader friend suggested Israel was committing war crimes.
Starving 1.5 million people and watching children die every day for the past 4 days is not my idea of a country defending itself.

I asked a question and what I'm getting from you and Cherniak is condemnation.

This is ridiculous at best.

Is one not allowed to question the actions of Israel?

Btw, back to my original question, just exactly how many dead Palestinians does it take to make a genocide? Is it 999 or 1000?

Cherniak_WTF said...

I'm surprised that Warren and JC have not called you a terrorist supporter...

The definition of genocide is:
"the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

shlemazl said...

"Remind me who broke that ceasefire Jason."

I am not Jason, but let me remind you. It was the elected Government of Gaza. "Cease-fire" went into effect on June 19th 2008. Israel was attacked by missiles on June 23d, on June 24th and most days since [Source].

"just exactly how many dead Palestinians does it take to make a genocide?"

I happen to have written a post about this. There is a little quiz at the end. Wonder which category you fall under...

Cherniak_WTF said...

I love the stench of hypocrisy of Jason, Warren and shlemazl...

From your own site shlemazl:
6. On a more personal note... Genocide is when every Jew you know has lost a relative. Genocide is when your dad has never had a chance to see his grandparents. Genocide is when your great-grandparents, old people at the time, were placed in a shed and burned alive along with all the other people of that mestechko in the far-away Ukraine.

Replace the word Jew by Palestinian and I'm sure that many in the Gaza would call it Genocide...

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050451.html
It is important that this much is understood from the start - no matter what happens in this war, the crossings into Gaza must open.

A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting.

The fact that Hamas may have gone too far with its rockets is not the justification of the Israeli policy for the past few decades, for which it justly merits an Iraqi shoe to the face.

1.5 million in a giant jail -

Robert Fisk is a little more elegant putting some perspective to all of this:
But watching the news shows, you'd think that history began yesterday, that a bunch of bearded anti-Semitic Islamist lunatics suddenly popped up in the slums of Gaza – a rubbish dump of destitute people of no origin – and began firing missiles into peace-loving, democratic Israel, only to meet with the righteous vengeance of the Israeli air force. The fact that the five sisters killed in Jabalya camp had grandparents who came from the very land whose more recent owners have now bombed them to death simply does not appear in the story.

Both Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres said back in the 1990s that they wished Gaza would just go away, drop into the sea, and you can see why. The existence of Gaza is a permanent reminder of those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who lost their homes to Israel, who fled or were driven out through fear or Israeli ethnic cleansing 60 years ago, when tidal waves of refugees had washed over Europe in the aftermath of the Second World War and when a bunch of Arabs kicked out of their property didn't worry the world.

Well, the world should worry now. Crammed into the most overpopulated few square miles in the whole world are a dispossessed people who have been living in refuse and sewage and, for the past six months, in hunger and darkness, and who have been sanctioned by us, the West. Gaza was always an insurrectionary place. It took two years for Ariel Sharon's bloody "pacification", starting in 1971, to be completed, and Gaza is not going to be tamed now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html

I wonder how your diatribe would be reversed if it were Jews that are treated as those in Gaza...

shlemazl said...

1. Less than 100 thousand people have died in almost 100 years of conflict. That includes several wars with Arab countries and both sides - Jews and non-Jews from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Britain, etc... Now compare it to the actual genocides listed on "my website".

2. In an actual genocides one side is determined to exterminate the other by all means it has in the fastest time possible. If Israel actually wanted to exterminate Gazans it would have taken Israel about 2 hours.

3. So far in this campaign Israel achieved a lower rate of civilian casulties than western countries in either Yugoslavia or Iraq. Not exactly what happens during a "genocide".

4. Actual genocides are not motivated by self-defence. To explain this in simple terms so that even an idiot can understand... Jews were not shelling Germany prior to the Holocaust.

Cherniak_WTF said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lyrical said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lyrical said...

I can only say that our former Liberal leader would have probably used different words than the current one on Monday.

As was said years ago by a soon-to-be replaced world leader, we need to follow the money as far as terrorist organizations are concerned. One man's terrorist is another man's soldier.

Happy New Year...

Mala Fides said...

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/herman08222006.html

What it shows me is that any political figure who wades into the Israel/Palestine conflict is going to be maligned no matter what he or she says.

Note that the article was written before Michael Ignatieff had probably ever heard of the town of Qana and before he made his regretted comments about "war crimes".

Here is the point, early in his Canadian political career, Michael Ignatieff spoke up about the plight of the Palestinians in Qana and the Israeli attacks and in his (then) words "war crimes".

Look at what followed for Michael, a massive backlash from the Canadian Jewish community and a large (pardon the expression) exodus of Jewish members from the Liberal Party.

Michael has worked hard over the past 2 years to repair the rift that his earlier statement had made.

Now Michael is apparently taking a much more cautious approach to Middle East issues . . . and look what happens more attacks!

The only thing an objective and reasonable person can do when there is so much innocent civilian blood on the hands of both sides, is to condemn the violence as a whole - condemn the missile and mortar attacks of Hamas and the militant Palestinians and equally condemn the bombings of the Israelis. Both sides are taking an aggregiously wrong-headed and entirely evil approach to resolving their problems.

In my opinion, if you start off by calling people "terrorists" on one hand and "war criminals" on the other (even if they both may in fact be culpable of heinous acts against civilians), you are pushing the sides farther and farther apart and making the job of bringing peace more difficult, if not impossible.

"Genocide" is another loaded word that should be avoided, unless there is conclusive proof that an aggressor wishes to eradicate a people and that a policy has been employed to systematically meet those policy objectives.

The use of the word genocide is otherwise inflammatory and does not further the peace process. When used casually, or when inapropriately applied, the word simply becomes a tool of propagandists.

Another point that should be made is that the determination of whether one side or the other is guilty of genocide or war crimes should be left up to the International Criminal Court and not to one or the other of the warring factions or casual observers!!!

The fact is that the terms "war crimes" and "genocide" represent the most evil, sinister, and demonic actions known to man and they should not be tossed around lightly.

My question to both the Palestinian and Israeli 'leadership' would be, what exactly have you done since the start of the ceasefire last summer to deal with the underlying situation and particularly the absolutely atrocious living conditions in Gaza?

What have you done to move a permanent peace process forward and to improve the lives and security of your respective citizens?

Firebrand said...

Jason wrote: "Also, please note that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Why is only Israel responsible? Allow me to suggest that the "facts" on which you rely are highly suspect."

Um Jason, wasn't Livni in talks with Mubarak just before the attacks started? Do you think maybe, just maybe, part of why she was there was to get the Egyptians to agree to keep the border closed?