tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post2415042803990911715..comments2024-03-01T06:01:21.087-05:00Comments on A Blog By James Curran: The Saskatchewan UpdateJames Curranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-63732897303015738402008-01-15T02:55:00.000-05:002008-01-15T02:55:00.000-05:00In 2004 Martin 'appointed' (actually used his powe...In 2004 Martin 'appointed' (actually used his power to 'persuade' a couple of candidates to step aside) a candidate in my riding; while I wasn't very ecstatic at the start, once I saw the caliber of person that this was I decided to support him. And over a short campaign (which we lost but put in the closest 3-way race in the election) I realized just how superior he was as a candidate to what we would have put up - as a riding that occasionally has solid second Liberal support but most lately distant 3rd.<BR/>Orchard is not being blocked from running as a Liberal; he's been told along with Dorion (who has said he's known for some time that Dion was trying to get a female candidate for that riding) that this riding was one that the leader wished to have a woman in place. What good would it be to have women running in races that are near certain defeats? And when you look at Beatty's credentials, you can see this isn't a case of the leader picking his favourite drinking buddy for a job.<BR/>Orchard is free to run in the riding he lives in. And while there are no doubt disgruntled members -- new and old -- in this riding, the fact is the leader has the ability to appoint the candidate. And he did. The members have the option of supporting the candidate or not. And in not, they can choose not to vote for her, make a big stink (which some are), or quit.<BR/>I'm a Liberal Party member. My membership card doesn't have any one name on it but my own. While being part of a democratically elected nomination race is an important part of the process, being a team player does not always include that option. I guess we'll see who are the team players now.burlivespipehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048415779214466831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-40633585738709086422008-01-14T17:07:00.000-05:002008-01-14T17:07:00.000-05:00"I agree the party should have the ability to decl..."I agree the party should have the ability to decline a person's application for candidacy. I've never agreed with appointments of one candidate over another when candidates have been approved to run."<BR/><BR/>This is something I could probably agree on.<BR/><BR/>And I understand the issue of renewal, but Dion never said he'd give up the power to appointment. Also I believe that the increased amount of women candidates is an aspect of renewal, and on this point as far as I can see Dion looks like he will succeed in attaining the 1/3 mark.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-74490677303370669472008-01-14T16:55:00.000-05:002008-01-14T16:55:00.000-05:00The point is, we all stood at the altar of the Lib...The point is, we all stood at the altar of the Liberal Party in Montreal and declared to the world that we were a new brand of Liberal. A Party renewed and of renewal.<BR/><BR/>This isn't new. This is same old same old. <BR/><BR/>I agree the party should have the ability to decline a person's application for candidacy. I've never agreed with appointments of one candidate over another when candidates have been approved to run.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-30464685246498420492008-01-14T16:43:00.000-05:002008-01-14T16:43:00.000-05:00What is the goal of this hill? Dion to unappoint ...What is the goal of this hill? Dion to unappoint Beatty, and tell her if she wants, to run for a nomination? You thought Dion screwed Orchard... <BR/><BR/>To force Beatty to resign her appointment, and run for a nomination? This might be a good idea if she felt she had enough support. But again it would make the leadership look incredibly foolish. Plus, she simply won't do it if she can't win. And if you still think she should then you're just too principled for me. At this point I've got to believe there are many people thinking they'll die before Orchard runs here in the byelection. That's the hill they'll die on.<BR/><BR/>I don't really know enough about Orchard to call him a cancer or even to really judge whether he fits in with this party. I just know he's become a distraction by choice. And when you have an outpouring of "I told you so" from people on dealing with Orchard you've got to wonder.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-31588361828776541382008-01-14T16:05:00.000-05:002008-01-14T16:05:00.000-05:00As for you Grumpy...you're just being Grumpy.... ;...As for you Grumpy...you're just being Grumpy.... ;-)<BR/><BR/>And, Bailey... I already declared I'd die on this hill.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-30716362837680834102008-01-14T16:03:00.000-05:002008-01-14T16:03:00.000-05:00Oh boy. I guess we better just tell David he's onl...Oh boy. I guess we better just tell David he's only good for fundraising, database production and helping people win leaderships , because his kind -and opinions - aren't welcome. <BR/><BR/>There is nocody in this party more grassroots than David. And I mean nobody. Guess we don't need that kind of organizational skill though. <BR/><BR/>David, if you're reading this...and I know you are... these fine folks just think you're a cancer. <BR/><BR/>I guess I should publish the other 100 or so letters of support people from accross the country have sent to me on your behalf. Nah. Then these guys will just say those people aren't Liberal anyway and none of them live in the riding, and it's not like Outremont, Jim Curran isn't a good Liberal, and the pope isn't Catholic, and so on and so on and so on.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-48872263967257444602008-01-14T13:55:00.000-05:002008-01-14T13:55:00.000-05:00"Well. It's true. We, as a party, are telling this..."Well. It's true. We, as a party, are telling this riding what is good for them. We know better than they do."<BR/><BR/>No, James, the Liberals are telling LIBERALS what to do. There's more than 50% of the people there who support the other parties and are capable of using their own minds.<BR/><BR/>But for the record, this _is_ all about Orchard and I'd believe any one of Goodale, Dion, or Dorion over Orchard let alone all three over Orchard.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>lancelancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14481248175442820597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-8829313502538912652008-01-14T12:57:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:57:00.000-05:00Well one of those ways to get screwed is to resign...<I>Well one of those ways to get screwed is to resign your provincial seat after a long time pondering the difficult implications of that decision and then get beaten in a nomination race all the same, effectively ending your political career. Maybe Beatty made a bad/weak decision, or didn't time it right, same with Dion and Goodale, but it doesn't excuse silly behaviour from others.<BR/><BR/>Not that my voice matters in this debate, as a grassroots Liberal, but this just seems like a strange hill to die on. <B>Do they really expect Beatty to resign, or Dion to renounce and run for the nomination? I don't think that's an option and these Liberals know it. It's just about embarassing the leadership now. And David Orchard is fine with that.</I></B><BR/><BR/>Thanks Dan for summing it up. It's true. Do they really expect her to resign? I don't think they do. <BR/><BR/>And the strangest thing about all of this is that the guy Durocher who is making the most noise of all doesn't even live in the riding.Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12423615329119443537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-73359945830655948092008-01-14T12:47:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:47:00.000-05:00As a party with a long history in a Canadian polit...As a party with a long history in a Canadian political system where the leadership of parties consistenly makes decisions instead of local members it's not out of the ordinary at all to appoint a candidate. But, like I've admitted it may be a mistake to have done it here, or in other situations. But I'm not going to sit here feeling sorry for David Orchard, and a perceived "colonial" act.<BR/><BR/>For example in Roberval the Conservative head honchos overthrew the entire riding executive and candidate so they'd have an executive friendly to Denis Lebel. And Lebel proceeded to thump everyone in the byelection.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-85852412087463780312008-01-14T12:45:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:45:00.000-05:00>>And Liberals aren't known for renegging on inter...>>And Liberals aren't known for renegging on international agreements. GST wasn't an international agreement such as Kyoto. <<<BR/><BR/>Well then, perhaps the Liberals should have campaigned in 1988 and again in 1993 under a slightly different banner. Instead of "No Free Trade" according to your logic, they should have campaigned on "No Free Trade unless there's an agreement in place at which time we won't renege on the deal even if our entire 1988-1992 platform stated that free trade would be bad for Canada."<BR/><BR/>Yep the GST wasn't an agreement, but it was a campaign promise. So you would seem to suggest that it's okay to break campaign promises because they're not international agreements?<BR/><BR/>Is it any wonder that voters in this country are completely disenfranchised with federal politicians? I wonder what's more depressing: that we can't trust politicians to keep their word or that people like you continue to make excuses for them. (Unless of course you actually believe these guys, and if that's the case, you need serious professional help.)Sean Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550744638377851070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-89594908952242977062008-01-14T12:34:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:34:00.000-05:00Well. It's true. We, as a party, are telling this ...Well. It's true. We, as a party, are telling this riding what is good for them. We know better than they do. <BR/><BR/>Ms. Beatty is a fine individual I'm sure. Native and all that stuff to her credit. <BR/><BR/>Dorion is a longtime native activist and sits on the National Parole Board. David is deeply tied to the Metis and his grandparents are burried in the riding. <BR/><BR/>So, who are we to tell this riding who to vote for?James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-44182658173704590302008-01-14T12:22:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:22:00.000-05:00"The north has been for decades on the receiving e..."The north has been for decades on the receiving end of colonial attitudes"<BR/><BR/>"It's back to the old Indian Affairs system: 'We know what's good for you"<BR/><BR/>And a list of similar comments made throughout this process... <BR/><BR/>As if appointments have only happened in northern ridings.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-71148965308983004092008-01-14T12:15:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:15:00.000-05:00Maybe Joan can tell us how much she supported our ...Maybe Joan can tell us how much she supported our leader in Montreal.<BR/><BR/>Maybe she can explain how Stephane came to announce Dorion and Orchard as candidates in October of last year. <BR/><BR/>Maybe she can one day tell us how much of a distraction Goodale was in this process and if he "assured" her of an appointment. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the party can reimburse membership fees for those who no longer believe this is the party of their choice they chose to try and support. <BR/><BR/>What is this about racism?James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-62549079817537273052008-01-14T12:09:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:09:00.000-05:00NAFTA was initially pursued by corporate interest ...NAFTA was initially pursued by corporate interest in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House passed NAFTA by 234-200 and the U.S. Senate passed it by 61-38.<BR/><BR/>And Liberals aren't known for renegging on international agreements. GST wasn't an international agreement such as Kyoto. <BR/><BR/>This fraudulent excuse for a government called Conservative is in for a rude awakening one day if the international partners of Kyoto decide to pursue some form of legal action. More taxpayer money to the wind I suspect.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-60831274582680716322008-01-14T12:08:00.000-05:002008-01-14T12:08:00.000-05:00I don't buy the idea that Orchard didn't know Beat...I don't buy the idea that Orchard didn't know Beatty might be appointed. Like I said in mid-december before this situation got out of hand:<BR/><BR/>"If Joan Beatty really wants to run, and David Orchard really wants to become a fixture and not a distraction within the Liberal Party in Saskatchewan he should step aside and throw his full support behind Beatty in Northern Saskatchewan."<BR/><BR/>If Orchard wasn't ready to do so Dion probably should have reconsidered appointing her, but I still won't accept allegations of racism, or David Orchard's encouragement of heigtening the problems as acceptable behaviour.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-85797283755790177392008-01-14T11:51:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:51:00.000-05:00The Politicians in the party should stick to polit...The Politicians in the party should stick to politics. Leave strategy to those that are good at it. If Goodale was good at it, we'd have more than one seat in Sask. <BR/><BR/>I suspect Beatty's career may not be over. She may be able to run as a Provincial Liberal in 4 years, however, she'll be out of politics as of March 18, 2008 for a little while. <BR/><BR/>What David is fine with is that when he gives you HIS word, you should keep YOURS. Yours in this case would be a certain leader I supported and the fact that there was a gentleman's agreement in place for an open nomination. <BR/><BR/>How on earth do you think the people that paid $25 for memberships feel about this? And, they are in the hundreds. <BR/><BR/>And, just how do you think Ms. Beatty's constituents and donors feel now that she has abandoned them? Not good I suspect.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-30040287451220810562008-01-14T11:46:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:46:00.000-05:00How and why I dreamed up that Liberals supported f...How and why I dreamed up that Liberals supported free trade? Because we still have NAFTA, don't we? So here's your history lesson courtesy of the completely non-partisan Grumpy Voter:<BR/><BR/>It was Michael Wilson who signed NAFTA on behalf of Canada, October 7, 1992. I remember because it was my 25th birthday. (Do the math - I am likely older than you.)<BR/><BR/>There was a federal election in this country shortly thereafter and the Liberals campaigned on RENEGOTIATING NAFTA when they could have campaigned on BAILING ON NAFTA. (The Liberals also campaigned on repealing the GST and that didn't exactly happen, now did it?)<BR/><BR/>When the Liberals won the election, they implemented only minor changes to NAFTA and embraced the free trade concept! <BR/><BR/>Were the Liberal Party truly against NAFTA, they would have fought a way out of it when they took power. (Kinda like how the Tories are bailing on Kyoto) Surprise surprise, after thirteen successive years of Liberal governments, we still have NAFTA - go figure. <BR/><BR/>Class dismissed.Sean Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550744638377851070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-3008696175854709362008-01-14T11:28:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:28:00.000-05:00Well one of those ways to get screwed is to resign...Well one of those ways to get screwed is to resign your provincial seat after a long time pondering the difficult implications of that decision and then get beaten in a nomination race all the same, effectively ending your political career. Maybe Beatty made a bad/weak decision, or didn't time it right, same with Dion and Goodale, but it doesn't excuse silly behaviour from others.<BR/><BR/>Not that my voice matters in this debate, as a grassroots Liberal, but this just seems like a strange hill to die on. Do they really expect Beatty to resign, or Dion to renounce and run for the nomination? I don't think that's an option and these Liberals know it. It's just about embarassing the leadership now. And David Orchard is fine with that.<BR/><BR/>Sheesh, I just want to win this bloody seat.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-52494685530987103632008-01-14T11:20:00.001-05:002008-01-14T11:20:00.001-05:00That's my point Dan.That's my point Dan.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-9976483407426289552008-01-14T11:20:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:20:00.000-05:00As for you Grumpy. You need a Free Trade lesson. T...As for you Grumpy. You need a Free Trade lesson. <BR/><BR/>Trudeau's gov't did indeed commission the MacDonald Commission to explore Free Trade. It was Mulroney that pursued that agreement in '85 at the so-called Shamrock Summit. The Liberals and NDP vehemently opposed the idea, but Mulroney had a majority government and debate was irrelevent.<BR/><BR/>In 1992 Mulroney and Bush the elder signed onto the draft of NAFTA.<BR/><BR/>How and where you dream up that Liberals supported this is beyond me. Chretien may have signed the final draft, but this was a done deal. <BR/><BR/>For the record, there are many wise men and women that know NAFTA ain't workin' for Canada. History (if it already hasn't) will show this agreement has been brutal for Canada. <BR/><BR/>That's an entirely different debate though.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-73831770466459705702008-01-14T11:10:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:10:00.000-05:00They are more ways to get screwed in a nomination ...They are more ways to get screwed in a nomination race, than an appointment.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-19861716971292301452008-01-14T11:06:00.000-05:002008-01-14T11:06:00.000-05:00Really Dan? May you never live to see the day when...Really Dan? May you never live to see the day when one of your friends gets F*cked in a nomination contest. <BR/><BR/>My Guess? You will....and you're gonna hate it.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-56516758747884361842008-01-14T10:56:00.000-05:002008-01-14T10:56:00.000-05:00Difference being that Ujjal, Belinda, Rae, and Bri...Difference being that Ujjal, Belinda, Rae, and Brison know that becoming a distraction isn't good for their careers or their party.<BR/><BR/>Democracy denied? Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.Dan McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070628161551970252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-82179048593545064402008-01-14T10:46:00.000-05:002008-01-14T10:46:00.000-05:00It's about Orchard - make no mistake. But let's ju...It's about Orchard - make no mistake. But let's just leave him out of the equation for one minute here. The bulk of my comment still stands as factual: appointing candidates is completely constitutional within the Liberal Party. Those who opposed it had/have a choice - quit the party in protest or build enough support to change the rule when the Liberal Constitution is examined again in the future. Clearly they didn't have enough support in 2006, hence the current situation so why all the kerfuffle?<BR/><BR/>Now back to Orchard. Free Trade is something Canada signed onto. NAFTA is something we signed onto under a Liberal government. Orchard's entire raison d'être is completely contrary to established Liberal Party policy. None of the Liberals you mention have anywhere near a vocal and populist history as that of Orchard. It's for this reason that I suspect most Liberals see him as a significant liability and would prefer the party cut all ties with him.<BR/><BR/>I feel sorry for Orchard. I applaud his efforts at raising awareness on an issue he feels is destroying the Canadian economy and certainly, the man has done great work at building a popular base of support. But at the end of the day, he's failed twice to become leader of the old PC's, he's been campaigning against free trade for over twenty years and he's been unable to secure a permanent place on the federal scene for reasons that have a lot to do with the cut throat nature of federal politics. It is entirely possible that Orchard's issues are not in line with those issues that are important to most voters these days - they might have been twenty years ago, but they simply aren't any longer.<BR/><BR/>I think that if he truly wants to establish himself politically, he should focus his populist efforts at the provincial level and use his great organizational skills at building the provincial Liberals in Saskatchewan into something resembling a winnable party. His future (if he has a political future) should be at the provincial level where his brand of populism doesn't scare the living crap out of voters.Sean Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550744638377851070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5865994732097663473.post-48690969835506839352008-01-14T10:31:00.000-05:002008-01-14T10:31:00.000-05:00Many fought to erase "appointments" in Ottawa at t...Many fought to erase "appointments" in Ottawa at the 2004 bi-ennial. The Martinites put that to bed pretty quick though. This isn't about Orchard. It wasn't about Coulon in Outremont either. <BR/><BR/>Nobody disavowed the recent announcement by the Progressive Canadian Party when they decided to join the Liberal fold. We also accepted Garth, Brison, Belinda, Ujjal, Rae as Liberals. Therefore, I think none of us have just cause not to accept David as a Liberal.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.com